Indian Police Crackdown on Muslim Bangla-Speaking Migrants

SALEEM SAMAD

Two impoverished families have been working as scrap pickers for over two decades in the suburb of New Delhi. Both families were detained, transported in harsh conditions, and pushed into Bangladesh in the dark hours. Police in Delhi claimed that they are Bangladeshi citizens and that their ancestors were from a village in the southern district of the country.

The ordeal of the two families surfaced after their families filed cases with the Delhi High Court and Kolkata High Court. The families complained that the Indian authorities do not know of their whereabouts in Bangladesh, and the families do not have any contact with them.

The petition said that last month, Sweety Bibi and her two sons, Korban Sheikh (16 years old) and Imam Sheikh (6 years old) and another family, Sonali Khatun, her husband, Danesh Sheikh and their son Sabbir Sheikh, were abducted, and police said they were deported to Bangladesh as they were Bangladesh citizens.

Later, the West Bengal police collected several documents to prove that the family’s ancestors’ history is from the state of West Bengal and that they are genuine Indian citizens.

A video shot inside Bangladesh, which went viral on social media, showed two women, one teenager and one male, who was seen in the footage. It could not be ascertained where in Bangladesh it was recorded. The woman, Sweety Bibi, described in the video how they were forcibly abducted by police and later pushed into a foreign country and were alleged to be émigrés from Bangladesh.

In the recent spate of crackdown against illegal immigrants, India, when persons speak Bangla (the official language of Bangladesh and also spoken in neighboring states of West Bengal and Tripura) and are Muslim, that person, in the eyes of the police, is a potential demographic threat to the country’s security. The authorities jump to the conclusion that the suspects are “illegal immigrants” from Bangladesh.

All over India, such suspects in thousands were hauled and taken to different concentration camps. The detained persons are enduring untold miseries, agony and sufferings. They are tortured by law enforcement agencies. The encampments have poor sanitation, no running water and inadequate food.

Indian press, which habitually barks anti-Bangladesh rhetoric, hardly reported the incidents of the harassment and illegal confinement of Indian citizens, bracketed as “unauthorized immigrants” from Bangladesh. Most of them live in shanty slums and work as menial workers and have migrated from different places for a better future and financial solvency.

According to international media and rights organizations, they have been critical of such government-induced crackdown against the working class in India. Most do not have proper documents to prove their identity. Even though they had valid citizenship documents, they had those confiscated and were told that the documents were counterfeit.

Human Rights Watch (HRW), a New York-based organization, said India forcibly expelled more than 1,500 Muslim men, women, and children to Bangladesh between 7 May and 15 June, quoting Bangladeshi authorities. The police, while detaining the suspects, speak of harrowing tales of being robbed of their cash and valuables, the poor people possessed. For the detained Muslims, the sky seems to have fallen over their head.

India is one of the few South Asia countries where secularism, equality and rights of citizens are guaranteed in the state constitution, but the government and law enforcement authorities are flouting the law with impunity during the arbitrary crackdown on illegal immigrants.

The suspects are forcibly boarded on a train or trucks and brought near the India-Bangladesh border. They are pushed through porous borders into Bangladesh. Such “push-in” as it is popularly said on both sides of the border has become a regular phenomenon of the Indian Border Security Forces (BSF).

Bangladesh is encircled by India on three sides by land, and has seen relations with New Delhi turn icy since a mass uprising in August last year toppled the autocratic government of Sheikh Hasina, an ally of India, who is living in exile somewhere in New Delhi.

Bangladesh’s Foreign Ministry has repeatedly communicated with the Indian Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) to abide by international laws for deporting illegal immigrants. The standard procedure would be to produce a list of names, photos, addresses in Bangladesh, and documents to prove they are from Bangladesh.

Bangladesh authorities would verify their citizenship and decide who could be sent back. Meanwhile, some Arab countries, Malaysia, South Korea, the United States and other countries have provided documents of those deported for illegally staying in their country and are undocumented. They are listed when their work permit and visas expired long ago, or they were involved in heinous crimes and given long-term prison sentences. The criminals are sent back to serve the rest of their imprisonment tenure in their home country.

Political historian and researcher Mohiuddin Ahmad aptly said thousands of senior and junior leaders of Awami League, which ruled Bangladesh for more than 15 years, have fled to India, but they are not arrested for illegally crossing the border to India without valid travel documents.

The Indian government has kept its eyes closed to exiled politicians. The political leaders are mostly living in Kolkata and New Delhi at the behest of the Indian authorities. The majority of the Awami League leaders are Muslims and speak Bangla, but they are exempted from the crackdown, Ahmad remarked.

South Block in New Delhi remains silent over the pressing issue. Every week, the Indian border police are pushing so-called unauthorized immigrants into Bangladesh. The Border Guards Bangladesh (BGB) is not at all informed of the push-in. The operation is secretly conducted and in the cover of darkness by the BSF.

Despite the arbitrary deportation of “illegal immigrants” including Indian citizens, embargo on exports to India, moratorium on visas for Bangladesh nationals, and other pressing issues, Foreign Affairs Adviser Touhid Hossain last week reiterated that the interim government always wanted a good working relationship with India based on reciprocity and mutual respect. Our (Bangladesh) position remains unchanged,” Hossain said, noting that no one from the interim government ever said they do not want good relations with India.

Meanwhile, HRW in a strongly worded statement recently said India has pushed hundreds of ethnic Bangla-speaking Muslims into Bangladesh without due process, accusing the government of flouting rules and fuelling bias on religious lines.

The Hindu nationalist government of Prime Minister Narendra Modi has long taken a hard-line stance on immigration, particularly those from neighboring Muslim-majority Bangladesh, with top authorities referring to them as “termites” and “infiltrators”.

The crackdown has sparked fear among India’s estimated 200 million Muslims, especially among those speaking Bangla, the HRW statement said. “India’s ruling BJP (Bharatiya Janata Party) is fuelling discrimination by arbitrarily expelling Bangla-speaking Muslims from the country, including Indian citizens,” said Elaine Pearson, Asia Director of HRW.

“The Indian government is putting thousands of vulnerable people at risk in apparent pursuit of unauthorized immigrants, but their actions reflect broader discriminatory policies against Muslims.” India has also been accused of forcibly deporting Muslim Rohingya refugees from Myanmar, with navy ships dropping them off the coast of the war-torn nation.

First published in Stratheia Policy Journal, Islamabad, Pakistan, 29 July 2025

Saleem Samad is an award-winning independent journalist based in Bangladesh. A media rights defender with the Reporters Without Borders. Recipient of Ashoka Fellowship and Hellman-Hammett Award. He could be reached at saleemsamad@gmail.com; Twitter (X): @saleemsamad

Bangladesh-India: Treaty of Hope

SANCHITA BHATTACHARYA

On October 7, 2013, Bangladesh's Cabinet ratified the Extradition Treaty with India. Disclosing this, Bangladesh Cabinet Secretary Mosharraf Hossain Bhuiyan stated that the Cabinet meeting was chaired by Bangladesh Prime Minister, Sheikh Hasina Wajed, and that the treaty would now require the approval of the Parliament in order to come into effect, following the exchange of documents after legal procedures by both countries. The Indian Cabinet had already ratified the treaty. On October 23, 2013, the instruments of ratifications were exchanged, and the Treaty came into effect. The Extradition Treaty had been inked on January 29, 2013.

Some of the significant aspects of the treaty include:

Article 5: Nothing in this Treaty shall preclude the extradition by the Requested State of its nationals either in respect of a territorial offence or in respect of an extra-territorial offence.

Article 11(1): In case of urgency, one Contracting State may request the other Contracting State to provisionally arrest the person sought. Such request shall be made in writing and transmitted to the Central Authority of the Requested State through diplomatic channels.

Article 17(1): When a request for extradition is granted, the Requested State shall, upon request and so far as its law allows, hand over to the Requesting State articles (including sums of money) which may serve as proof or evidence of the offence.

Article 18: Each Contracting State shall, to the extent permitted by its law, afford the other the widest measure of mutual assistance in criminal matters in connection with the offence for which extradition has been requested.

However, according to Article 6, persons accused of political crimes [offence of a political character] would not come under the purview of the Treaty. Further, offenders accused of small crimes, with a maximum penalty of imprisonment for less than one year, are also outside the scope of the Treaty. Article 8 states that the signing countries also reserve the right to refuse extradition.

Apart from its specific provisions, the Treaty well enhance the already-much-improved Indo-Bangladesh security ties. India hopes that the Treaty will facilitate the extradition of Anup Chetia alias Golap Barua, 'general secretary' of the United Liberation Front of Assam (ULFA) and other criminals taking shelter in Bangladesh. Chetia has been in a Bangladesh jail since his arrest in 1997. A Bangladesh court jailed Chetia for seven years for illegal entry. Although his sentence has expired, he is still in Bangladesh custody. Chetia sought political asylum in Bangladesh thrice, in 2005, 2008 and in 2011, after being arrested from Dhaka's Mohammadpur area in 1997.

In addition to Chetia, National Democratic Front of Bodoland (NDFB) leader Thulunga alias Tensu Narzery and many other insurgents from India's insurgency-wracked north-east have been hiding in Bangladesh, and are now under imminent threat of deportation.

Bangladesh on the other hand, wants India's help in arresting and extraditing Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina's father Sheikh Mujibur Rahman's killers. The suspects, Captain (Retired) Abdul Mazed and Risalder (Retired) Moslehuddin, are believed to be hiding in India. The treaty will also clear the way to bring back criminals like Subrata Bain and Sazzad Hossain to Bangladesh from India. Bain and Hossain are currently lodged in Delhi's high-security Tihar Jail. Bain was charged with carrying Fake Indian Currency Note (FICN), illegal arms and for illegal immigration into India. Hossain is wanted in cases of murder in Bangladesh. The Awami League government of Bangladesh contends that Bain and Hossain were involved in attacks that targeted its top leadership. Bain is an accused in the August 21, 2004, grenade attack on a rally of Bangladesh Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina in Dhaka.

Further, with an over 4,000 kilometre the porous border between the two countries, mainly along India's insurgency-plagued north-eastern States, and reports suggesting that both Indian and trans-border terrorists are taking advantage of security gaps in the Indian State of West Bengal, the treaty will be crucial for both countries to take effective action against serious offenders for a wide variety of crimes, including terrorism, smuggling, human trafficking, organised crime, and white-collar crime. The treaty has also extended the scope of mutual cooperation on security and border related issues. It can be hoped, moreover, that it will help the enforcement agencies on both sides to secure their common goals of protecting their respective citizens and eliminating cross-border safe havens for criminals.

In addition, India has also operationalised the Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty in Criminal Matters with Bangladesh. The Legal Assistance Treaty assume importance in combating transnational organized crimes, trans-border terrorism, and other serious offences such as human and drug trafficking, money laundering, counterfeit currency, smuggling of arms and explosives, etc. Keeping in mind the regional challenges of terrorist funding and the recent Rohingya problem, such cooperation will create strong instruments of 'official hindrance' to anti-governmental formations and non-state actors with radical political agendas.

The India-Bangladesh relationship has been on a sustained upswing since Sheikh Hasina came to power in January 2009. With remarkable transformations in the domestic scenario, Dhaka sought to repair relations with Delhi, and to stamp out the anti-Indian sentiment in Bangladesh.

These gains, of course, remain tenuous. Recent developments, including the political turmoil in Bangladesh, and evidence that the US has revaluated its position on the Bangladesh Nationalist Party (BNP) - Jamaat-e-Islami (JeI) combine, with an assessment in its favour, suggest that the outcome of the General Elections due before January 24, 2014, are deeply uncertain. A restoration to power of the BNP-Jamaat combine in Dhaka would lead to the inevitable resurgence of Islamist extremist radicalization and the anti-India sentiment in Bangladesh, and the rapid erosion of the gains of the past years in India-Bangladesh relations. Significantly, the Extradition Treaty has several loopholes, particularly including the clause that allows the signatory states to refuse extradition, which would allow an uncooperative Government to subvert the letter and spirit of the agreement. As with much else, South Asia remains a region of extreme uncertainty.

First appeared on South Asia IntelligenceReview, Weekly Assessments & Briefings, Volume 12, No. 19, November 11, 2013

Sanchita Bhattacharya is Research Associate, Institute for Conflict Management

Bangladesh's women take rocky road to India in search of freedom and cash

Unskilled women cross the border and head to Mumbai to seek work, but Dhaka is keen to pass migration off as trafficking

SYED ZAIN AL-MAHMOOD

THEY CALL it "Bombay Colony". The village of Basatpur, in Bangladesh's south-western Jessore district, would seem a world away from the glitzy bars of Mumbai, India's showbiz capital. There are no Bollywood stars in Basatpur, just grinding poverty and choking dust.

But the arid, rundown border village has earned its reputation. For two decades, the women of Basatpur have trekked across the border and made their way to Mumbai where they have made a living as dancing girls at the city's notorious "ladies bars".

Anjuman Ara Begum, 45, has been there and back. "The girls go because there's nothing to eat here," she says. "The men can't earn a living, so they send us across the border." "All this," she adds, waving a hand at her tin-roofed brick house, "all this I made with money I earned in Bombay. I put two sons through college and married off my daughter."

Walking along the single road that strings Basatpur together, it's easy to see which families have sent members to Mumbai and which ones haven't. The thatched huts contrast sharply with the brick buildings, mirroring the diverging paths chosen by their occupants.

In a Muslim-majority country where the idea of women migrating for economic reasons without male guardians is still cause for unease and shame, Begum is a rebel. Remittances from migrant workers stood at $12.8bn (£7.8bn) in the fiscal year ending 30 June 2012, about 11% of Bangladesh's GDP. But the official number of female migrants was just 30,000 in 2011 – less than 5% of the total outflow, according to data supplied by the government's Bureau of Manpower Employment and Training (BMet). "Social attitudes towards women going abroad to work are still conservative," says Dr Nurul Islam, director of BMet.

For decades, Bangladesh banned unskilled women from seeking work overseas. Even though the ban was officially lifted in 2005, migrating abroad for work remains quite difficult for women in practice. Bureaucratic obstacles, high costs and negative social attitudes mean relatively few women migrate along official channels.

According to a study funded by the UN Development Programme, only 40% of Bangladeshi women migrants use recruitment agencies. The rest are believed to make private arrangements with the help of relatives and friends.

"Discouraging women from migration pushes migration underground, placing women at even greater risk of exploitation," says Selim Reza, a researcher with the Refugee and Migratory Movements Research Unit, an affiliate of the University of Dhaka. "In many villages along the Indian border, especially in Jessore and Satkhira districts, women have traditionally walked across without papers, even though the government chooses to ignore this."

In dirt-poor Basatpur, migrating anywhere that required a passport, visa or aeroplane ticket was out of the question. Pushed by poverty and pulled by the lure of well-paid jobs in distant Indian cities, the young women defied tradition to make the perilous journey across India in search of freedom and cash.

"Although the government and NGOs say this is trafficking, the women go of their own accord, usually helped by their husbands," says Arif Hossain, a local journalist who has studied the "bar girls" phenomenon. "In some villages, two-thirds of households have sent someone to Mumbai at some point."

Begum made the 2,000km journey to Mumbai in 1995. With two other women, she walked across the border and took a bus to Howrah station in Kolkata. From there, they took a train to Mumbai. Begum says she waited tables at a Mumbai bar, but acknowledged that the real money was in the "dancing". Some of the dancers sell sex discreetly to customers. "Dancing girls consider themselves a cut above prostitutes," says Hossain. "There is always the benefit of the doubt."

But the road to Mumbai is a rocky one. For some village elders and religious leaders, bar jobs remain a mortal sin. "It's a deal with the devil," says a local imam, who asked not to be named. "Unless these women dotauba [repent], they are in trouble."

Begum says there have been attempts to stop the migration to Mumbai through village arbitrations, but she remains defiant. "When I was starving no one fed me," she says. "I did what I had to do to keep body and soul together."

Mumbai banned dance bars in 2005, blaming them for a climate of moral decay – but an illegal trade still exists, say observers. "Since the authorities cracked down on dance bars, many of the 75,000 or so girls ended up on the streets," says Shailendra Yashwant, a Mumbai-based journalist. "Many were loaded on to trucks and trains, and shipped out of the state. These women are terribly vulnerable."

Nurul Islam of BMet denies there are women crossing or migrating into India without passports or visas. "These are all cases of trafficking," he says. "When there is a porous border, traffickers will always dupe innocent women."

Many experts say the government and some NGOs are sweeping the social and economic issues under the carpet by focusing on trafficking. Some organisations are fighting back. The Management and Resources Development Initiative, a Dhaka-based NGO, has started a skill-development institute in Basatpur where young women are taught handicrafts.

Begum's neighbour, Shamima Sultana, 33, who returned from Mumbai five years ago, is among the first batch of graduates. Sultana says she would never have crossed the border if she had found work locally. "I was helpless," she says. "No girl would like to do what we did."

First appeared in The Guardian, January 31, 2013

Illegal migration not a bilateral conflict

Bangladesh Foreign Minister Dipu Moni speaks to Barkha Dutt, an Indian television journalist and Group Editor with NDTV on the issue of migration from Bangladesh to India and water sharing treaty between the two countries. Here is the full transcript:

Barkha Dutt: This session of Parliament might well see the UPA government seeking a ratification of the land boundary agreement with Bangladesh. It's just one of the many issues between India and Bangladesh that could be resolved, but are awaiting the crossing of that last lap. Of course, in India there is also, now, a raging controversy over the issue of migration from Bangladesh into India. Here, in Dhaka, to take us through some of those issues is Bangladesh's Foreign Minister, Dipu Moni. Pleasure talking to you, Ma'am.

Dr Moni: Wonderful talking to you.

Barkha Dutt: Let me start by asking you, there was so much expectation of the Teesta Accord coming through between India and Bangladesh, the two Governments, of course, reached a consensus. And then domestic politics within India, in a sense, played obstacle. How seriously could this issue impact the larger relationship between Delhi and Dhaka?

Dr Moni: Well, as the relationship between our two countries stands now, I would say it is excellent. And it's the same spirit that we had in 1971; I think it's that kind of spirit that we're experiencing between the two countries, the way both the countries are collaborating with each other. And, during the landmark visit of our Prime Minister to Delhi in 2010, the Joint Declaration that the two Prime Ministers signed, I mean, that had many things in it. And over the years, over the last two years, both governments have worked very hard to implement those. And, I would say, we have done quite a lot. We have done quite a lot and a lot has been achieved. What; You talk about the expectation about the Teesta.

Barkha Dutt: Of course there was great disappointment...

Dr Moni: Just before the visit of Dr Manmohan Singh to Dhaka, there was this expectation, and very high, that the Teesta Accord will be signed. Unfortunately, it didn't...

Barkha Dutt: ...Materialise?

Dr Moni: Materialise. But, a lot of other things happened. And if we look at the positives that happened, quite substantial and we are very happy with those. But, definitely, if we could have had Teesta it would have been perfect. But you deal with imperfections all the time. So yes, people are disappointed, people, people in Bangladesh, we would like to see Teesta really done and we are waiting; and we would like it to be sooner rather than later.

Barkha Dutt: Is it your understanding that it will be delivered upon?

Dr Moni: Well, I believe, between the two countries, given the relationship, it's only natural that we would have this Accord; and would have this water treaty. And we have, we share, 54 common rivers. If we do this one, it will only be a second one. So what we have done already, during Dr Manmohan Singh's visit, is that we have signed a co-operation, a framework co-operation agreement. And, in that agreement, we have talked about dealing with the water issues in a holistic manner doing the basin-wide management of the rivers; so that is, I think, tremendous progress on this front. So, I'm not unhappy at all with the progress that we have made but, definitely, we would like to have Teesta. And, as I said, it's only the second one. So, it will be delivered; I'm sure, I'm sure.

Barkha Dutt: Were you surprised at Mamata Banerjee's statements and have you tried to, independently, reach out to her since then?

Dr Moni: Well we knew it was not going to be signed just, just, before the ...

Barkha Dutt: Just on the eve of it, yes.

Dr Moni: Just on the eve of it, and very late; but we didn't know why, at that moment.

Barkha Dutt: Since then she has made statements that there is not enough water for West Bengal.

Dr Moni: Yes, yes.  But I have visited her; I have met her once during my, on my way back from Bengaluru, after attending the IORAC meeting. And we discussed, of course, Teesta was one of the issues, and...

Barkha Dutt: What was your reading? Did you think that she would come around?

Dr Moni: Well, she said, she gave me her views and, obviously, I gave our view, which is, it is a common river, it is a common river, and there are rights of many, many people. And it's not the question of someone giving it to another; one person giving it to another, it's sharing. And if we have less water, we will share that lesser amount. It's all about sharing and between two neighbours, that's what we need to do.

Barkha Dutt: The transit-rights' issue that India and Bangladesh have been trying to work out for India to have faster access to parts of its own country in the East. How much of that is based on a reciprocal understanding that Teesta will be delivered by Delhi. And don't give me the diplomat's answer; give me the real answer.

Dr Moni: We are, we are, working on the transit issue because it is a very big issue; because it consists of the road transit, the rail transit and also the water transit. So we have, actually, engaged a task force, a core committee, which looked at the whole issue; and, because this is new for us, we tried to look at other comparable situations in other parts of the world, and have come up with a, a, framework and we are now looking at what we need in terms of infrastructure, in terms of legal, what do I call it ...

Barkha Dutt: Modalities?

Dr Moni: Legal instruments, where are the gaps; and now we have identified the gaps and infrastructure development, it takes time.

Barkha Dutt: But politically...

Dr Moni: But legal instruments, we're working on them. On infrastructure, both sides, we are working on them. So it will take a little time. I wouldn't say one is dependent on the other but it would be very nice if we could have Teesta.

Barkha Dutt: Is that another way of saying, if Teesta were delivered on, transit rights would move faster?

Dr Moni: Transit would. No, transit is moving at its own pace. Yes, it hasn't been stuck anywhere. It's moving, our work is going because we, this is something we, believe in, because we believe in regional connectivity.

Barkha Dutt: It's not conditional? It's not conditional on Teesta?

Dr Moni: I don't think so. I don't think it's conditional on Teesta. But, definitely, having Teesta would, definitely, be helpful.

Barkha Dutt: Another area of agreement that seeks the next step is, what's called, the land swap deal which are the enclaves on which Bangladesh and India have agreed to, virtually, swap these areas and give these people who haven't had citizenship right, on either side, those rights. Now this needs a Constitutional Amendment in India and a two-thirds majority in Parliament. So it not just needs the allies of the Congress Party's support, but also needs other groups. I'm sure you're aware about the real politics that drive this. Are you expecting this to go through soon or do you understand that domestic politics could mean that this could take a long time?

Dr Moni: This is ratification that is needed and we have been waiting. In fact both countries have been waiting for quite a long time. It's not '71; it goes back a long, long time. And, I believe, India will deliver.

Barkha Dutt: Is there a time frame?

Dr Moni: Well, I wouldn't. I wouldn't put any time frame because I can say what I, as a person, am going to do, but how can I say anything about a Parliament? You have so many people, and in their Parliament they have different ways of dealing with things, and they have their own pace. So how can you really?

Barkha Dutt: Let me ask you in another way. How patient is the political will here, in terms of understanding that there is a government here, which has its own majority, but there is a government in Delhi, which doesn't have its own majority? So the decision-making capacity is, naturally, influenced much more by domestic politics.

Dr Moni: See, at the same time, even during the Indian Law Minister's visit to Bangladesh, he was representing India in our celebration of 90 years bijoy, of Kazi Nazrul Islam, and he also had Members of Parliament belonging to the Opposition and they all spoke in one voice about being good neighbours and good friends with Bangladesh; and they did talk about the foreign policy of India, being something where they all come together. If a government has promised something to a neighbour or to another country, that, irrespective to whether someone is in opposition or in office, they would be supported. So, that was the, that was the understanding given to us by, as recently as I would say, two months ago. And the other thing is that this is something that has remained as an unresolved issue between the two countries for quite some time. And both countries are looking forward to resolving those long-pending issues and, I believe, India is as eager as Bangladesh is in resolving these issues. So, I hope that it is done soon.

Barkha Dutt: The border between India and Bangladesh is the root of many, many, many conflicts. And, for India, and you must have followed what's happening in India, the issue of migration from Bangladesh into India has become a very serious point of national debate; and that is because of the recent, very tragic, conflagration in the Eastern state of Assam. We have had our principle Opposition party, again, talking about deporting, what they call illegal migrants from Bangladesh. This case is now even in the courts of the country. Talking about this, it's a very emotive and a very volatile issue in India. How does the government here, in Dhaka, view this?

Dr Moni: Well, we had, you see; this whole region we have to; whenever we talk about migration, we have to know about the history. And there we have had migration in 1947; we have had migrations also in 1971. But during 1971, India hosted nearly 10 million of our people. But, I would say, most of them returned to Bangladesh after our Independence, after the Liberation. Since '71, how many people have crossed the border, either way, I don't know. We don't have any figures.

Barkha Dutt: Because the border is so porous...

Dr Moni: Border is porous and there is always to-ing and fro-ing all the time; and families, the way the borders were drawn, families were always going back and forth from both sides. So, I don't have any figures, we don't have any figures, whether in Assam or anywhere, or in Bangladesh of people who migrated.

Barkha Dutt: But when you hear of political parties in India talk about deporting, what they call illegal migrants, does that concern you? If that were to happen, because it could happen if the court ordered it; that has happened in the past, what would be the response of Bangladesh?

Dr Moni: When these people migrated that would, since when these people are there, that would definitely be something to look at. And, I'm sure, the legal issues that are concerned may be settled; and once these issues are settled, only then can we say.

Barkha Dutt: You don't see it as a point of bilateral conflict?

Dr Moni: I don't see it as a bilateral conflict, no, because this hasn't been raised with us, at least not in the recent past, no. There are economic migrations going on in so many places but the, this hasn't been, this hasn't been an issue that was raised with us. So, I wouldn't, I wouldn't term it as a bilateral issue. If there is something that is going wrong with Assam, they would have to look at the, because...

Barkha Dutt: Because there isn't actually agreement as to whether they are settlers or migrants, but then, the key question would be if migration still continues?

Dr Moni: Migration happened, so these are also some factual, some legal questions, so I wouldn't like to comment on that.

Barkha Dutt: But you know that, just at a humanitarian basis, one of the things that could come up, because this debate is happening in India right now, and the international debate is on Bangladesh's refusal to take in refugees from Burma, the Rohingyas; and, therefore, a number of people will say that of course, the humanitarian refuge was given to mass migration in, in for example, 1971. But then, shouldn't Bangladesh be doing the same for the Rohingyas today? And if it isn't, then why isn't it understanding that political parties are objecting to Bangladeshi migration?

Dr Moni: You see, Rohingyas coming into Bangladesh; that also has a history. And that is very different.

Barkha Dutt: No, I'm not doing a literal comparison but the principle of it.

Dr Moni: Yes. You see, Bangladesh has never forgotten 1971 and that is why, when the Rohingyas entered, there was a mass entry of mass expatriates from Myanmar into Bangladesh in 1979 and then also in 1992; we let them in. And we have been, I would say, very gracious hosts to a large number of Myanmar refugees, and until 2005, most of them went back. They were repatriated. About 24,000 of them were left and then the repatriating process completely stopped. And in the meantime, say about, now it's an estimate, between three hundred to five thousand illegal entrants into Bangladesh. They're now residing in the neighbouring areas, in the bordering areas. And this has been a huge burden on Bangladesh. Bangladesh, you know, is one of the most densely populated countries in the world and the Rohingya refugees are being very well taken care of. In fact I would say that they are better off than our local population who live outside the camps and that also gives rise to sometimes social tensions. 

Barkha Dutt: But in many ways that's the argument made in India as well. 

Dr Moni: So we have been very good to them, we have been very, very good to the refugees. And the illegal entrants, they have also been here now for a number of years and it is putting a huge burden on Bangladesh. And we have been talking about this since their entry; we have been talking about this repatriation process. This is not like one person migrating, having economic migration, having relatives on the other side, going there or one person coming to this side - it's not like that. This is like mass movement. I'm sure something like that didn't happen in the recent past in Assam. If something had happened, that happened in 1947, during the Partition, but not now. And that also happened in both ways. This one, the Rohingyas, we have been doing our best, but we also have, this is when a refugee situation occurs, it is also the responsibility of the world community to share the burden. That burden sharing hasn't been there. 

Barkha Dutt: There have been suggestions by some groups that if you let them in, the world, the world will step into help. 

Dr Moni: Well in refugee camps, some of them are helping. The UNHCR, some of them are helping. And about the illegal entrants, they are not refugees. So how do you deal with them? They have to be repatriated and for us voluntary repatriation is the only solution. And so we have been bilaterally discussing this issue with Myanmar and we hope that there will be a solution, but even the talks are very slow. But for Bangladesh, it has now reached a point where we cannot take anymore burden. What we have done is, when some of the people came through boats, we have given them fuel, we have given them medicines, we have given them the fuel for their boats so that they don't get stuck on the waters and then returned them. And since they have returned, now not too many people are coming. And this time also there was sectarian violence, not a state prosecution, like in the past. For sectarian violence if something happens, you do not expect another country to, I mean, this time the situation was factually very different from the past. And that is why we believe that our response was also not illogical at all or not irrational at all. And we believe that we have done the right thing and what best we could offer, we have offered. 

Barkha Dutt: Okay...

Dr Moni: And we have been talking to Myanmar people and what the best we could offer we offered. And we have been talking to Myanmar people and they have also been able to bring the violence down. 

Barkha Dutt: One of the other irritants between India and Bangladesh are the border killings. It has been, what the Border Security Force in India will say, or smugglers or criminals or infiltrators will say, your government has been told that even if they are criminals, arrest them, but you have argued that they are being fired upon indiscriminately. Is this an issue that is now resolved?

Dr Moni: Well, not yet. Because you see border killings are still happening, though, definitely in terms of numbers it has gone down, but still killings are happening and this is an issue, which I think, this one issue jeopardises all other achievements, I would say.

Barkha Dutt: So do you mean this casts a longer shadow than most other issues?

Dr Moni: Absolutely, absolutely. And people feel very strongly about it and that is why we have always urged the Indian side, and from the Indian government also, they have repeatedly said that they will try to contain their forces and try to make sure that they exercise utmost restraint. So the trend is good but we want the numbers down to zero.

Barkha Dutt: Something that grabs headlines for all the wrong reasons is somebody who never stays out of news for too long, is Taslima Nasrin. And I ask you about her, because I know you are a lover of good books and she is a writer and she has had an asylum in India previously, which stopped as well because of various controversies at home. How do you view her case? Do you view it as an international case that Bangladesh could handle or should handle differently?

Dr Moni: Well, she is a citizen of Bangladesh and she has been living in exile. Through her writings she sort of became very controversial. And there were, at that time, the extremist forces and the fundamentalists were also very vocal about it. So there was a situation maybe, or she chose to leave the country. So as a citizen am sure that she has all the rights. And I don't; I read a lot of books and I have read one of two of her books; am not very fond of her. I would say as a writer, obviously she has her own views, and she is entitled to that. I'm not a huge fan of her writing, not the style, not the style of writing, very provocative kind of writing.

Barkha Dutt: Okay. On a more personal note before we end, a woman in politics, Bangladesh's first woman Foreign Minister. This is a part of our world that all of us come from, where the paradox that women have never had a problem leading our country, being in the ministry of politics, yet it doesn't always percolate down. So, you know, you have great symbols of power, great symbols of political power, but not necessarily empowerment and freedom for the ordinary woman. How has the ride been for you so far, wearing the female hat? Has the gender ever come in the way of you being able to do your job? Is there resistance from other quarters?

Dr Moni: Well, it comes once in a while. 

Barkha Dutt: It always does, there is no escaping.

Dr Moni: I wouldn't say that it has never come. It has come once in a while, but I think I grew up in an environment where I was always treated as an individual, and when I felt like a woman, I thought, I always thought that was a privilege; that it was wonderful to be a woman. And, there are so many things. The most important thing in life, childbirth, that woman carries that child, so why shouldn't I feel proud for being a woman? I feel proud and I feel comfortable being a woman.

Barkha Dutt: And in politics is it an advantage, a disadvantage or neither? 

Dr Moni: Well I wouldn't say that it's an advantage or a disadvantage. Probably a lot it depends on self. You see in our personal lives also, every household, yes there are still many discriminations, and at the same time mothers are the decision makers in most houses I would say, and we have great women champions, and even if you look at the religion and I keep saying this, in Buddhism, they say that men are the carriers of Knowledge and women are carriers of Wisdom; and in Hinduism you have all the great goddesses. And in Islam the first person to convert was a woman, first martyr in the cause of Islam was a woman, and our prophet was actually surrounded by powerful women and very influential women, and the women played great roles in his life. So I think from that point of view also in our society, Bangladesh is a melting pot of religions, cultures and all that. Here we see that quite a lot; women are, at some stages of lives, are very powerful, they are the decision makers. At another stage, they are very vulnerable; there is still a lot of discrimination that goes on, there is still a lot of violence that goes on. But I think women decision makers, specially the President, Prime Minister, of Bangladesh, has made tremendous difference in her previous tenure, during the National Women's Development policy, doing a lot of things for the woman, empowering woman.

Barkha Dutt: There was a reference to it in her speech in the People's Empowerment Conference.

Dr Moni: Yes, and she believes in it. That is why there are so many of us in the Parliament, in the cabinet, in the party. And as I said, yes, sometimes we also feel, sort of not always, at times also I think it's also great, I would say most of the time it's great being a woman.

Barkha Dutt: Well, most of the time. It's a great pleasure talking to you.

Dr Moni: Thank you. Wonderful talking to you.

Barkha Dutt: Thank you so much.

Full transcript of the interview in NDTV, August 08, 2012